My Mr. PC: Paul Carr (Part II)

Paul Carr on how Black audiences are overlooked in jazz programming; "Real Jazz"; the fallacy of treating jazz like pop music; women in jazz organizations

Read Part I of this interview, here.

Check out the full lineup for this year’s festival taking place February 14-16, 2025 at the Bethesda Marriott on Pooks Hill Rd.

Matt Merewitz (MM): Let’s talk about the Mid-Atlantic Jazz Festival. After Ronnie Wells and Ron Ellison passed away, there was a vacuum for a while. How many years was the festival not happening?

Paul Carr (PC): Three years.

MM: And the story I remember has something to do with Susan Jenkins and you guys sitting at a table. Is that correct?

PC: Yeah, Suzan organized a meeting to see if we could bring the East Coast Jazz Festival back. When we got into it, we found out that the nonprofit was dissolved and there were other issues, so it wouldn’t have been as seamless to just pick it back up.

MM: I was a white teenager going to the East Coast Jazz Festival in 1997 or 1998, and that was a culture shock for me; but I was open to it to get a feeling for the culture. I experienced similar vibes later when I lived in Pittsburgh and Philly, where I’d go to The Dell East and see Aretha Franklin or whatever, and the audience would be almost entirely Black. The East Coast Jazz Festival was really the only Black-run festival in the area at the time, or even the entire East Coast. What made East Coast and Mid-Atlantic so special?

PC: I think they both serve a community that’s often overlooked when programming is being put together [for jazz festivals]. Back then, the programming did seem focused on African Americans who liked that style of jazz. It was unique in that way. When we started in 2010, we had a lot of that audience, but over time, that audience has been replaced. Now, the festival has more diversity, which is great.

MM: They’ve been replaced. What do you mean?

PC: What I mean by “replaced” is that we have a new generation of African Americans into the music, and the audience has also become more diverse. But sometimes, presenters aren’t sure about their model for choosing artists. It could be because they like something or saw it in a magazine, or maybe they just copy what other festivals are doing.

The thing about East Coast and now Mid-Atlantic, is that I’m a musician and I have a sensibility about artists who might not have a certain status according to critics or the “jazz police.” I know these artists have fans and there’s an audience for them, but I’ve taken some hits for it.

I remember the first meeting when I came back with Susan and some other people. Susan asked, “Why don’t you run the festival?” I already had a nonprofit with the Jazz Academy, so I ran it by my wife, and we talked about it. I came back with a lineup I had in mind, and one person at the table said, “Why would you want to do this? You can see these same people at Westminster for $5.”

I said, “Well, you can’t see this person, or that person, because I’m putting together a unique group.” That was when it was time to take action, and everyone scrambled. It was funny. Jazz is tough. If people don’t see the big names, they don’t always show up. But I still see those people today, and they always give me love because I’m still doing this 15 years later.

MM: It’s been 15 years since you’ve run Mid-Atlantic?

PC: That’s right. This year will be the 16th year. We’ve got a new venue this year. We’re not at the Hilton anymore in Rockville.

MM: Where will you be?

PC: We’ll be at the Bethesda Marriott, just down the street.

MM: Oh, you mean the Pook’s Hill Marriott?

PC: People from Maryland call it the Pook’s Hill Marriott. But they changed their name to the Bethesda Marriott, which sounds a bit more refined. That’s where we’ll be this year. The venue has more rooms. We’ve been selling out with 300 rooms, so it’s great to have more space this year. Hopefully, more people can come out.

MM: What are some of the biggest highlights of your career as a presenter? Things you’ve done that really stood out?

PC: One of the biggest moments was the first year when we had Mulgrew Miller, Michael Bowie, Bobby Watson, Lewis Nash, and Terrell Stafford. That moment hit me—what we were doing was real. When I walked on stage, I realized it was happening. That video has almost 150,000 views. It was a tough journey to get there, and I’m really grateful to all the musicians who supported what I was doing.

Another moment was when Freddy Cole came to me in the second year. He said, “Come here, little man,” and told me I needed to get a better piano. The one I was using wouldn’t hold a tune. He was right, and it led me to start working with a real piano dealer. We now use pianos from Warren Shadd, the first African American piano maker.

A really special moment was when I presented the Jazz Service Award to Ellis Marsalis. He had no idea he was getting it, and he was so humble and funny about it. We also presented it to Roy Haynes in 2012 or 2013. He had such a great attitude, and it was heartwarming to see how grateful he was. Presenting these awards to my heroes is definitely a career highlight.

I also love when I’m teaching a student who doesn’t realize I produce the festival. When they tell me they’re going, I always wait until later to tell them!

MM: How do you manage all this? Do you have a staff? How much does Karmen still help?

PC: Yeah, Karmen helps a lot. She has a consulting company, and she splits her time with a couple of employees who help with the jazz academy stuff. I’m involved in all the details—contracts, transportation, and all that—but Carmen does the bulk of it. She brings a lot of corporate experience, and that’s really helpful in the music world, where things don’t always go as planned.

For example, when dealing with musicians, sometimes it can be a challenge to get contracts back or deal with last-minute changes. Karmen handles a lot of the logistics, especially when it comes to all the personalities involved!

MM: I want to talk a little bit about how important supportive partners are. I know I couldn’t do what I do without my wife, and I’m sure you feel the same.

The late Ronnie Wells (1943-2007), founder of the East Coast Jazz Festival, which was later brought back as the Mid-Atlantic Jazz Festival by Paul & Karmen Carr (photo credit: Diane Daly)

PC: Absolutely. I’ve always been surrounded by strong women—my mom, my five sisters—and I’ve never been intimidated by women who work hard. I’ve always seen how much they do. So when I see women like Karmen, I call them superwomen. They make things happen! Whether it’s your wife or a family member, there’s always someone behind the scenes supporting the work, and that’s what makes it possible.

MM: I totally agree.

PC: Anyone doing something on a high level has someone supporting them—whether it’s a spouse, a child, or a staff member. In my case, Karmen’s been that support. She’s a big reason things run smoothly.

MM: Switching gears, do you see the Maryland, D.C., Virginia music scene now compared to 20 or 30 years ago?

PC: The musicianship has definitely gotten better. There’s a higher level of proficiency now. When I first arrived in D.C. to attend Howard, we had top musicians like Buck Hill, Reuben Brown, and Steve Williams. But there was a bit of a drop-off after that. Now, pretty much everyone is proficient on their instrument. Not everyone has the jazz sensibility, but technically, they can play the music.

There are also way more venues presenting jazz now. We have The Kennedy Center, Strathmore, Blues Alley, Clarice Smith Center and CapitalBop. There’s the D.C. Jazz Festival and Bethesda Jazz & Blues—there’s just so much more happening now. The competition in this area for jazz listeners is fierce.

MM: Yeah, I sometimes think about it. I’ve lived in Pittsburgh, Philly, New York City—major jazz towns. I’ve also been to San Francisco, LA, Seattle, Chicago. Each has its own vibe, but right now, I think D.C. arguably has a more vibrant scene than almost any other city besides New York, LA, and Chicago.

PC: You know, depending on who you get, though, you might have to travel a bit—like if you want to catch someone at Keystone. But Washington is definitely a hub, and I know musicians moving here all the time. They talk to me about it.

MM: That’s interesting.

PC: Yeah, and I hear about it at least once a year. Musicians are always looking to relocate here because of the scene.

MM: Did you ever try touring nationally or internationally on your own?

PC: Not really on my own, but I’ve been invited to play in other countries. Next year, though, it’ll be the first time I’ve spearheaded an opportunity myself. Usually, I’ve been invited to gigs, but I’m talking about planning a trip to France to play in a club.

MM: That’s awesome.

PC: I’ve played in Russia, South America, and the Caribbean, and I was offered a gig in Taiwan the year the typhoon hit. But I was too busy here.

MM: Wow.

PC: Yeah, I’ve always been busy. Even when I was teaching, I had 25 to 30 students a week. So, I’ve always had a packed schedule.

MM: Yeah, I get that. Do you ever feel like you missed out on the performing aspect, or are you happy with how things have gone?

PC: I’m happy with what I’ve done. You know, I used to think, “Why isn’t Paul in New York or touring?” But then I realized, what I’m doing is just as important. I’m getting people into the music, creating opportunities for musicians, and building an economy for jazz here. A lot of the people who were my students or came in contact with me have stayed connected to the music.

MM: I remember once I was in a lesson with you, I told you I wasn’t going to pursue music. You said, “You might not be a player, but you’ll be in music.” I never forgot that.

PC: Yeah, you were really into it. Even then, I could see it. And I remember you made all-state jazz band around the same time.

You know, you can tell when someone’s really dedicated. It was competitive back then, but you did really well. I always knew you’d be in music somehow.

MM: I never had the stockbroker vibe.

PC: Right, you didn’t give that off at all.

MM: So, do you feel like you didn’t perform enough?

PC: Sometimes I do think about that. My time for New York would’ve been in the early 90s. That’s when my generation was in full swing, but I was so involved in teaching and the scene here. I’m around a lot of younger saxophonists now who know Tim Warfield but don’t know me. Sometimes I think about it, but I’ve been really focused here.

MM: Is that still the case?

PC: Yeah, a bit. I remember Kent Jordan, a great flutist from New Orleans. He came to my house in the early 90s and said, “You’re crazy if you think you should move to New York. Look at what you’ve got here.” I still wanted to be in New York, though, playing with the guys.

MM: I get that.

PC: Yeah, I’ve played in places like the Django in NYC. It’s a cool spot. But I’ve never really pushed to lead a gig there. I know all the people who book gigs in New York, I just haven’t made the move to pursue it. I’m pretty sure I could book one if I tried.

MM: All right, we’ll work on that. Looking ahead to this year’s festival this weekend, what are you excited about? I know you’re excited about all of it, but give me two things you’re especially proud of.

PC: Well, first, I’m really excited about säje. I’m a saxophone player who loves great jazz vocals, and they’re just tremendous. They swing, they sing harmonies beautifully, and they really know how to connect with the audience. I’m thrilled to have them performing.

I’m also excited—and a little intimidated—to play with Billy Pierce. We’re doing a Tribute to Benny Golson, and I just spoke with Billy the other day. He knows so many Benny Golson stories because he knew him personally. That’s going to be special.

Then there’s the closer with Orrin Evans, Chris Potter, Jeff “Tain” Watts, and Dwayne Dolphin. Honestly, every performer this year is incredible. For example, Tia Fuller is amazing—she’s doing an educational session with us and playing with the Boston College group.

MM: That sounds incredible.

PC: And Geoffrey Keezer and Gillian Margot—I just found out they’re married! I had no idea until I heard them playing together, and I said, “Man, this is great.” Geoff has been to the festival before, but when I was talking with him, I heard him say, “Hey honey, can you grab that?” And I was like, “Wait, what?” They’re such a phenomenal pair.

MM: They really are.

PC: And Vincent Herring—he’s bringing his band, and they’re going to bring some soul jazz to the festival. It’s going to be fantastic.

MM: Real quick, I want to touch on #realjazz2. Why do you feel the need to differentiate between “real jazz” and everything else?

PC: It actually started as a joke. The reason I used #realjazz2 was because #realjazz was already taken as a hashtag. But I wanted to focus on the kind of jazz that swings and feels good, the kind that uplifts people. That’s how it all started.

I don’t have anything against more adventurous or creative jazz forms. It’s just that I wanted to focus on the style that really connects with audiences. You know, at the East Coast Jazz Festival, which I’ve attended multiple times, you’d see packed rooms even if you didn’t know the performers’ names. It was about the music itself, and that’s what I wanted to capture with #realjazz2.

MM: I’ve went to the East Coast Festival a few times, and I know exactly what you mean.

PC: Exactly. That was the inspiration. And back then, our mantra was “standing up for real jazz.” But we’ve loosened up since then, inviting more variety and different styles. I realized that everyone’s jazz journey is different—mine started with Grover Washington Jr. playing “Mr. Magic.” Why not let someone else have that same kind of introduction to jazz?

MM: Have you considered bringing in groups like Butcher Brown, Marquis Hill, or Makaya McCraven?

PC: Absolutely. This year, Keyon Harrold is coming, and we’re creating a new stage called The Q to feature acts like that. We’ll have Kristy DeShields, who was up for a Grammy, and Chelsey Green; they represent that mix of tradition and innovation.

Funding can be a challenge. We have small donors and just got our first corporate sponsor last year. When I talk to agents, they know our budget and try to work within it. Sometimes they’ll say, “Paul, I have this act that’s in your price range,” or, “You don’t really want this act—they’re not a fit for what you’re doing.” We’ve built a good understanding with each other.

The problem is that the industry treats jazz like pop, and it’s not. Jazz isn’t about chasing the “next young thing.” You grow into jazz—it’s timeless. That’s why the pop model doesn’t work for this music.

MM: Last thing I want to ask—can you name five players who you think are incredible but not widely known?

PC: Oh, well, the first person has to be Don Wilkerson. A lot of people don’t know he played on Ray Charles’s records in the ‘50s. They think that was David “Fathead” Newman, but it was actually Don Wilkerson. I never went to a gig of his when I was in high school where he didn’t get a standing ovation. He could make the horn do so many incredible things.

MM: That’s a great pick.

PC: Someone else I think people don’t know enough about is Buck Hill. Would you say Buck isn’t known?

MM: I’d say listeners of a certain age know him, but definitely no one under 40 knows who Buck Hill is. I’d also say that regionally, people on the East Coast know Buck Hill better. I don’t think he ever toured the West Coast much, though he did record for SteepleChase, so he must have gotten to Europe at some point. But he worked for the post office for most of his life.

PC: Yeah, that’s true.

MM: And some of his recordings are still in print or at least are available digitally, so they’re out there.

PC: Absolutely.

MM: Anyone else? Maybe someone under 40?

PC: I’ll tell you who I think is fabulous, though he might be just over 40 now—Tim Green.

MM: Oh, yeah. Tim’s amazing. He’s a little over 40, but he’s incredible. What’s he doing in Baltimore these days?

PC: He’s teaching at Peabody.

MM: Are there any younger musicians—say, under 30—you find especially promising?

PC: Oh, for sure. I mean, there are so many. One name that comes to mind is Alex Hamburger. She’s a flutist and vocalist, and she’s phenomenal. She’s already making waves. I believe she just signed with an agent, so I’m sure we’ll be seeing her more on the national scene soon. She’s actually one of my students, so it’s exciting to see her take off like this.

MM: Any other women players?

PC: Amy Shook is a great example. She’s an amazing bassist. She’s been around for a while and is so talented. She plays with a lot of people and has a trio. She’s also doing a lot to support the community.

MM: Got it. So back to Alex Hamburger—she’s really making strides?

PC: Definitely. She’s doing the work and already has a strong presence. I’m excited to see her trajectory because she’s got it all—talent, drive, and a unique voice in the music.

Interviewer: This has been great. Thank you so much for your time.

Paul Carr: Thank you! I really appreciate what you’re doing. You know, whenever I see something you’ve written or are involved in, I know it’s going to be thoughtful and have a bit of an edge to it. Keep it up!

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Check out the Mid-Atlantic Jazz Festival.
Check out Paul Carr’s website.
Check out Paul Carr’s Jazz Academy of Music.